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Trim....

11 Apr 2014 23:22 #882 von foxfan911
Trim.... wurde erstellt von foxfan911
Hey guys, on EC135, is there a way to completely reset all cyclic trims to their original, normal, default, "center" positions after using beep trims and force trims? Seems like when, after I use these systems, the cyclic (say when on approach and landing) can seem to still be "trimmed" even though I turn off A-Trim and A/P altogether??? How do real-world pilots deal with this?....and how should I? Thanks guys!!

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13 Apr 2014 10:43 #883 von rotorsim
rotorsim antwortete auf Trim....
In the real world trim system works different. There are springs that hold the stick in a (virtual) centered position. Pressing FTR will relealse the spring force, so stick can be moved almost without force. So you press the button. While holding it, you fly the rotorcraft in its well trimmed position. Then you relase the button. Springs will now hold the stick like centered in this new position.

If you use the beep trim function an electical acutator will not change your trim, it moves also the stick and its centering position.

It is not possible to do this at home (without having very expansive hardware). So we have to live with a workaround.

My hint: Use FTR for every large change in flight attitude. So you will always fly with a trim that will give you enough control in every direction. It is not possible to "reset" trim by a simple keypress, because such a sudden change would quite likely let you lose control. The only way tho reset trim system is to hit FTR button with engines running idle (rotor RPM < 80 %).

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07 Jun 2014 05:20 #1004 von foxfan911
foxfan911 antwortete auf Trim....
Thank you for the answer. Dreamfoils Bell 407 has a trim reset or trim center function button which the manual advises you to "be careful while using this inflight." So I can see what you mean, because in flight, you have to use it very carefully to avoid big, abrupt attitude changes. However, it is a pretty nice function to have to zero everything back out, so for example, approaches and landings are a little easier since the stick is back to it's original orientation. I even tried to set up a button for the standard x-plane trim centering (pitch and aileron) functions, but I can't seem to make that work.

One thing that was able to do is have x-plane display a numerical value for the trims from the Data Input and Output menu...similar to displaying the frame rate. I can use the beep trim and use the display to reset the trim back to zeros. This is a good way to do it, and probably most realistic, but I think it would still be cool to have the option or ability to use a single button to reset or re-center the trims.

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08 Feb 2015 08:07 #1562 von foxfan911
foxfan911 antwortete auf Trim....
***UPDATE***

I know this post is a little bit old, but I just wanted to update and share that I figured out a way to use a single joystick button to "Reset" all trims to center. I use Thrustmaster Warthog using it's button mapping software called T.A.R.G.E.T. Basically, I created a button sequence and mapped them to the X-Plane Trim resets (Pitch, Roll, and yaw). So when I push this programmed button, it carries out these resets in an extremely quick (almost simultaneously/instantly) sequence, and instantly resets my trims to 0.000. This has worked really well for me and is very helpful for takeoffs and landings where your muscle memory almost has a feel for the default zero-trim position. Just an FYI update in case somebody with a similar question comes along.

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07 Nov 2015 14:29 #1974 von Ldee247
Ldee247 antwortete auf Trim....

foxfan911 schrieb: ***UPDATE***

I know this post is a little bit old, but I just wanted to update and share that I figured out a way to use a single joystick button to "Reset" all trims to center. I use Thrustmaster Warthog using it's button mapping software called T.A.R.G.E.T. Basically, I created a button sequence and mapped them to the X-Plane Trim resets (Pitch, Roll, and yaw). So when I push this programmed button, it carries out these resets in an extremely quick (almost simultaneously/instantly) sequence, and instantly resets my trims to 0.000. This has worked really well for me and is very helpful for takeoffs and landings where your muscle memory almost has a feel for the default zero-trim position. Just an FYI update in case somebody with a similar question comes along.


Hi foxfan911 hope you good, just came across this forum topic I'm new to x-plane but just love helicopters.I've realised the x-plane helicopters are not that easy to control compared to the ones I flew in Fsx and P3d unless maybe my settings aren't configured correct or could be a bug. I use a Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog full set and was wondering if you can help as much as you can regards Target software setup with reference to your old post quoted above.I setup up my 4way beep trims onto the joystick hatswitch but the issue is once I move my hatswitch trying to recentre becomes impossible.
What are your sensitivity settings and null zone set to if you don't mind post a screenshot. ?
Is your thrustmaster dual throttles both tied to collective or you just using one throttle?

Lastly I also realised upon applying collective on takeoff the helicopter tends to veer to the right even if I try to counter compensate with the left rudder pedal of my saitek combat pro rudder pedals. I can't initiate hoover and it tends to takeoff in a diagonal which is kinda puzzling me whether it's a control issue.
I hope you will be able to help or anyone thanks in advance.

System specs:
Win 7 64 bit
I7 3770k @ 4.5ghz
Gtx 780
Trackir

Regards
Ldee247

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15 Nov 2015 19:45 #2006 von foxfan911
foxfan911 antwortete auf Trim....
Hello Ldee247. I will be happy to help.

So to answer your questions,

The reason that the helicopters are harder to fly in xplane is because the xplane flight model is MUCH more realistic than FSX or P3d. In fact, since getting x-plane, I always use it for helicopter flight because the other progams are a joke compared to X-plane. I only use FSX to do commercial jet flights. Without going into a long rant, X-plane uses this thing called blade element theory for it's flight model, where other programs use "stability derivitives". This method of computing the forces on the airplane is much more detailed, flexible, and advanced than the flight model that is used by most other flight simulators. Most other simulators use something called "stability derivatives" to compute how an airplane flies. See this page to understand the vast differences and how blade element theory accurately replicates true flight.:

wiki.x-plane.com/Appendix_A:_How_X-Plane_Works

Now on we go: If you are talking about recentering trim, then there are several ways I do this. First, your beep trim should be mapped to the button under the red button (cyclic) See the Rotorsim EC135 manual to accurately set up your cyclic. I have the trim values displayed on my monitor during flight so I can recenter them. It is a small display in the top left corner of your screen. You do this by going to SETTINGS>DATA INPUTS AND OUTPUTS. Then go to box 13 and click on the fourth box to display trims during flight. That way, when you are landing, you can use beep trim to recenter trim to zero. Also, I have a button mapped to my warthog that instantly sets all trims to zero.

For the most realistic flight on EC135, you need to have all sensitivity set to full and no null zone. I use a curve (value 1) on my X and Y axis (cyclic) to slightly deaden the center of the cyclic. The makes takeoff, landing, and hovering MUCH easier. This is done in TARGET.

Yes, my warthog throttles are tied together for collective (and the other flight sims I do) I have the gray INCR/DECR mapped for throttle (which is rarely ever used on EC135 due to the FADEC)

Yes, due to the realism of the xplane flight modeling, the helicopter is going to behave like that. Increasing collective will increase torque and the helicopter will naturally yaw right. See this video to see what I'm talking about. You will see that as the pilot is lifting off, it will yaw right, so he gives left pedal to compensate. Also notice that the left skid hangs low due to translating tendency:




You have to compensate by giving some left pedal. And just to say, flying helicopters means that you will be constantly manupulating the controls (especially cyclic) There is no "sweet spot" and you will be "wiggling" the cyclic around all the time, especially in hover. If you watch any video you will see the pilot constantly manipulating the controls. See this Blackhawk cockpit flight for example of what I'm talking about:



And if you read about translating tendancy, you will understand why the helicopter will not just lift straight up (like in FSX). Basically, because of the thrust of the tail rotor compensation (left pedal), the helicopter will want to move laterally to the right. That is completely normal. So when you are taking off, in addition to left pedal, you will need to use some back, left cyclic to compensate for this because of translating tendency. Helicopters hang lefts skid low in a hover because you are giving left cyclic to compensate for the tail rotor thrust. Watch this awesome blackhawk maximum performance takeoff, and you will see left skid low (wheel in this case.)



You can also check out my videos at

www.youtube.com/channel/UC9xq8p221o0AMtCyFRVVp1A

Finally, I will be happy to email you my warthog profile so you can import it into TARGET and use it yourself. You will have to map a lot of buttons in X-plane itself, but I think I can also send you my X-Plane Keys.prf file and that may do it for you, but I'm not quite sure. You could make a backup of your file and try mine and see if that works. If not you could just delete mine, and replace yours.

Hope that helps!

Cheers!
Folgende Benutzer bedankten sich: Ldee247

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